October/November 1995, pgs. 29-30, 95

What They Said

Israeli Prime Minister: Palestinians Will Have Only Entity, Not State

The election season has begun early in Israel with the prime minister and the head of the Likud trading blows not only in the press but on Israeli television. And almost all of the controversy is over the peace negotiations, specifically Oslo B, the long-behind-schedule agreement on withdrawal of Israeli forces on the West Bank.

Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin gave an extensive interview, broadcast on Sept. 6, that indicates the Palestinians may never get their state, and Hebron may never see the end of the Jewish settlers. More surprising is his suggestion that Likud party head Binyamin Netanyahu may have advised Syrian President Hafez Al-Assad not to make peace with Israel before its 1996 elections because Likud could give Syria better terms. (Netanyahu not only denied the assertion, but added that if Likud comes to power, it will not give back Syria's Golan Heights in exchange for peace with Syria.)

The usually taciturn Prime Minister Rabin was drawn out by a combative Israeli television reporter, Nasim Mish'al. Their conversation was viewed as one of the more important interviews given by the prime minister in recent months. Highlights follow:

Mish'al: You consciously say that even if there is another agreement, the terror will not stop. What is the logic of withdrawing now from six cities and 420 villages from which suicide terrorists might set out?

Rabin: I will explain it to you. A statesman—and I hope I am one—must first of all see where he is going. I am going toward a solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict, including the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, based on the position of the Labor Party which is opposed to the notion of Greater Israel.

M : Mr. Rabin, we are talking about terror and not about Greater Israel.

R: Greater Israel means a binational state of over 3 million Palestinians and 4.5 or 5 million Jews. In their dreams and prayers about returning to Zion, generations of Jews over the last 2,000 years did not dream of a binational state but about a Jewish one that does not spread over the entire territory of Eretz Yisra'el.

M: Mr. Rabin, that was not my question. What is the logic of withdrawing from cities and villages when you know that terror might continue to strike at us from there?

R: First of all, I want to know the kind of solution I am going for and to know if there are obstacles and pains along the way. I want to reach peace with the Palestinians as an entity living beside us, not within the pre-Six-Day-War borders. To that end, I am prepared to take risks because I see a solution in front of me in the distant future. In my opinion, this solution will lead to the settlement of the dispute between the Palestinians and us which lies at the root of the Arab-Israeli conflict.What is the alternative, to have double the amount of terror? Here at least I have a Palestinian partner to the solution. Does the Likud propose any solution?

"I see a solution in front of me in the distant future."

M: I am not asking the Likud, I am asking you, sir. You promised personal security to the citizens of Israel and there is no personal security.

R: I promised a solution with maximum personal security. We fought a war in Lebanon for three years. Did we end terror there? We continue to sustain casualties from Lebanese terror despite the three years of war and an IDF [Israel Defense Forces] presence in Lebanon. I do not see a solution coming in one week, a month, a year or two. We must know where we are going, and we are headed toward the right solution.

As for the issue of terror, take the suicide bombings. Some 119 Israelis, including the settler murdered two nights ago, were killed or murdered since 1 January 1994, 77 of them in suicide bombings perpetrated by Islamic radical fanatics. Did they take place in Judea and Samaria? No, they occurred in 'Afula, Hadera, Dizengoff Street in Tel Aviv, the Elite Junction in Ramat Gan, and Jerusalem. All the bombers were Palestinians who came from areas under our control. We, too, failed to prevent acts of terror by Islamic lunatics and radical religious fanatics....

M: Not too long ago you were quoted in the press as asking: If terror attacks can be perpetrated from Gaza, what will happen if we leave Genion, Qalqilyah, and Turkarm? What would you reply to your own question?

R: I said that in the context of our demand that the Palestinian Authority [PA] prevent terrorist attacks from the areas under their control. For example, half a year ago, the PA handed over 200 or 300 original Israeli identity cards as well as hundreds of Israeli birth certificates, and told us: Dear friends, perhaps you can see to it that Hamas [Islamic Resistance Movement] does not get hold of such documents? We realized then that the documents had been stolen from the Interior Ministry in Ramla by extremist Hamas elements.The deed was perpetrated on Israeli territory, the documents were taken to Gaza and seized by the PA, and handed back to us. Imagine how many terrorists could have carried Israeli identity cards and birth certificates...

M: Mr. Rabin, I do not know if you noticed that the rage is directed at you after every terrorist attack and you have just mentioned a series of them. You are the one being called a murderer and a traitor—last week you got a new title, "The Engineer," while Shimon Peres remains "the architect" of peace. Can you explain this phenomenon?

R: As prime minister, I bear overall responsibility. Nothing is being done without my okay, whether it has to do with the peace process or bearing more painful consequences, both as a prime minister and defense minister. I have no complaint against those who direct their rage at me, and I know why they do it. They know the only person who can lead this move is me.

M: Do you not mind? Does it not hurt you? Does it not bother you to be called a murderer and a traitor?

R: I would say that it is not pleasant. All I feel toward them is contempt. Who are they? Did they fight as I did? Are they responsible for Israel's security achievements as am I?...

M: On the face of it, known as you are as Mr. Credibility and Mr. Security, you could have been the ideal man to enter into a dialogue with the right wing. However, you, of all people, have become their No. 1 enemy.

R: For a reason. They realize that there is only one man who can pull this move off, and I am that man. Nobody else could have pulled off the agreement with the PLO, the Gaza-Jericho First agreement, and the continuation of the Oslo process.

M: Have you not missed an historic opportunity to enter into a dialogue with them?

R: I do not think I missed it, and the reason is simple. There is an ideological conflict between Greater Israel and a Jewish state that does not want to rule over another people, which means an agreement to create a Palestinian entity—as I see it, something less than a state that lives in peace with us. At my age, and with my experience I am not looking for popularity. When I decided to run for the premiership on behalf of my party in the 1992 Knesset elections, I believed that a historic opportunity had been created in advance toward peace, not without pain or problems along the way or without difficulties and internal opposition. I thought this would bring the circle of my life around, of my 27 years in the military; to exhaust the opportunity given to the State of Israel, partly because of events over which we have no control, and partly due to our ability to use this opportunity to realize Zionism as I see it.

M: Sir, I understand your point, but now I should like to go back to the settlers. Why do you like to anger them? Why do you call them names? Only a few minutes ago you say that all you feel toward them is contempt.

R: I feel contempt toward those who call me a murderer and a traitor. Please be accurate.

M: I stand corrected. Now let me repeat the question: Why do you like to anger them? You called them collaborators with Hamas.

R: I call the right wing that, not them.If I need proof, there was an announcement on al-Quds Radio in Damascus on behalf of Hamas saying that the political goal of terror is to bring down Rabin and his government.

M: What has that got to do with the right wing and why call them a collaborator with Hamas?

R: Because some of them, the extremists—this does not apply to the settlers or the entire right wing—like to gloat over spilled blood. They do not condemn the murderers, but instead help them attain their political goal.

M: Nevertheless, being the prime minister, have you not gone too far by calling Israeli citizens collaborators with Hamas?

R: Only those who really help them out. Hamas counts on them. There is a reason why Hamas does not strike at the settlers but mainly at residents of Israel. Why does it do that? In order to provide them as an excuse.

M: I understand that you do not regret your remarks.

R: Not at all. Moreover, what were your first questions about? On the issue of personal security, and not about the ideological conflict between Greater Israel and my position, the position of the Labor party. At the moment I am being accused of forsaking the lives of the settlers. Once it was said that the settlers were an addition to security. Where is the security? Our problem today is to provide security for the settlers, and I am not talking about border settlements.

M: Do you consider the settlers pioneers?

R: Not at all.

M : So what do you consider them?

R: I consider them people who fulfill their political ideology. They believe in Greater Israel and moving to settlements. Their pronouncement that the settlements are an addition to security is unfounded—and I am not talking about settlements along the confrontation lines. The latter are a totally different story than Psagot, a tiny suburb of al-Birah and Ramallah, with 800 versus 50,000 people; Brakha and Yitzhar versus Nablus; or 450 Jews within Hebron's population of 150,000—these are not settlements.

M: Sir, let us talk about current issues. Will the IDF withdraw from Hebron?

R: We demand special arrangements in Hebron in order to defend the Jewish settlement there, which I did not allow during my first tenure as prime minister. I think a serious error was committed, which has nothing to do with the Jewish holy sites, such as the Cave of the Patriarchs and the Avraham Avinu Synagogue, whose restoration as a holy site, not as a Jewish quarter of Hebron, I ordered during my first tenure as prime minister. Kiryat Arba is just like Upper Nazareth—this is the answer to Hebron.

M: Are you thinking of evacuating the Jews from Hebron?

"I feel contempt toward those who call me a murderer and a traitor."

Rabin: The commitment I gave to the Knesset on the basis of the Declaration of Principles with the PLO is not to evacuate any Jewish settlement during the interim period still stands.

M: Did you find a solution when you toured Hebron on Monday? Did this tour provide a way out?

R : I had a solution even before.

M: What is it?

R: The formula of the other six cities will not apply to Hebron. There will be a special arrangement which will ensure the security of the Jewish inhabitants there, within the city itself and in Kiryat Arba and Giv'at Haharsina, and regarding Israel's freedom of action in Hebron in the security sphere.

M: Does that mean that the IDF will not pull out?

R: I did not say that, I am speaking about principles. There will be a certain degree of evacuation from the places we control in Hebron, not the holy places I mentioned earlier. On the other hand, if we fail to reach an agreement, as an Israeli and a Jew I will not feel good if 120,000 Palestinians living in Hebron are not allowed to hold elections that are not under the shadow of the Israeli bayonet because of 450 Jews....

M: Another issue is the prisoners. What are your fears regarding the release of Palestinian prisoners? Are you afraid of Israeli public reaction?

R: No, this is a personal consideration. I ask myself which prisoners I can release. During all wars we released soldiers with whom we fought, soldiers who killed Israelis. In 1956 we released the president of the Egyptian military court who in 1954 hanged Egyptian Jews who allegedly spied for Israel. It is true that our attitude toward the soldiers of a country which fought us is different from that toward terrorists, but still, I reached an agreement with those who sent them, the PLO. At a certain stage we were engaged in a terrorist struggle waged by the PLO against us. From the moment...

M (interrupting): Mr. Rabin, will you release the prisoners in the framework of the agreement?

R: I will release prisoners. I will not release those who murdered and wounded Israelis, although at a later stage, when we reach the permanent agreement, we will look into other components as well....

M: If agreements should be implemented Mr. Rabin, then let me ask you about the Palestinian Covenant. Will you stop the talks and the process if the Palestinian Covenant is not annulled two months after the Palestinians hold their elections?...

R: The Palestinian Covenant is a key problem in my mind. We will reach an agreement which will include this point, and if the Palestinian Covenant is not annulled, this would be grave and would make the continuation of the process not possible.

M: Well, let us speak about Syria. The negotiations with the Syrians are stuck, and my question is whether this is only because President Al-Assad is opposed to an Israeli presence on the Mount Hermon outpost.

R: I think there are numerous reasons for the gaps in positions between us and the Syrians. The Syrians do not want to receive less than what Al-Sadat did from the late Prime Minister Begin. They say: You withdrew to the 4 June 1967 borders except for the Gaza Strip which the Egyptians did not want; you uprooted all Israeli presence in the area you evacuated. You did not demand early warning stations, nor any Israeli presence. Three...

M (interrupting): Would you be prepared to give up an agreement with the Syrians over an early warning station?

R: I do not want to tell you. You are not al-Assad after all, it is not with you that I

am conducting the negotiations, and I will not tell you what I will or will not be prepared to accept. We have positions which we believe should...

M (interrupting): Will the negotiations progress soon, in your opinion? Will you reach an agreement with the Syrians by election time?

R: I do not know. Let me add another thing. I have grounds to believe that the head of the Likud, MK Netanyahu, sent messages to Syria, the gist of which was: It is worth your while to wait until after the elections.

M: Again now? Lately?

R: Several times, although I cannot give you the dates.

M (interrupting): But you are making a grave statement. You are accusing the opposition head of torpedoing the negotiations with the Syrians.

R: I did not say that Netanyahu said they would or would not withdraw. I am quoting myself again—his messages to the Syrians were: It is worth your while to wait until after the elections. I cannot come and say...

M (interrupting): What are you saying, is it well founded? Was this recently? There was an announcement once that...

R (interrupting): It is absolutely well-founded, and I'm talking about the last six months. It is possible...

M (interrupting): Is this why the negotiations got stuck?

R: I did not say that. There are gaps in the positions too, but I think that you also heard comments by Syrian Foreign Minister Al-Chaar, on various occasions, that the Likud proved it is prepared to withdraw from all territory occupied from an Arab country, as proven in the peace with Egypt, and perhaps Labor and Rabin do not wish to do so.

M: Still, Mr. Rabin, it is a very sensitive matter to accuse the opposition head. I want to understand...

R (interrupting): Let me re-emphasize, I possess information that the Syrians were informed by the Likud head or his emissaries that it is worth their while to wait on the peace negotiations with Israel until after the elections.

M: I assume he will react to this.

R: Let him.